Interview w/ Jeff Riddle of TheGiveGive about Negotiation with Venues

Jeff Riddle started out as a touring musician, and eventually went on to work in booking/artist management and artist/venue consulting. He managed my career for over a year, and helped to secure me tens of thousands of dollars in concert fees. Jeff now lives in New York City, where he heads the East Coast division of a successful marketing firm. He also runs TheGiveGive (www.thegivegive.com), a blog that specializes in teaching professionals to build lasting business relationships. I recently spoke with him about booking, and specifically about the process of negotiation. Note that in much of this interview, we're talking about negotiation with venues that are willing to pay a guarantee, such as colleges, private events, festivals, etc. 

MT: When you realize you have interest from a venue or a college, what do you want to keep in mind?

JR: First you’re going to want to address the mindset. The typical mindset in the negotiation (and a common misconception!) is that the artist is going to feel undesired, and that the other party (venue, presenter) has all the power. The reality is that if the other party is willing to work with that artist, they need the artist, too. So once there’s a mutually agreed-upon movement forward, the artists need to understand that they are in a much more powerful position than they let themselves have. Remember that just because you ask a question, or ask for something, doesn’t mean they aren’t going to want to work with you anymore.

MT: An artist might also run into a situation where a venue hasn’t committed yet, but is ‘shopping around’. This happens a lot with colleges, especially college festivals. 

JR: That’s another mindset. Say they email you back something like: “This sounds interesting, but how much does it cost?” In this case, the artist becomes a commodity. The venue is basically price shopping. Depending on how you feel about this as an artist, you can respond one of two ways. You can either say, “We don’t talk price until we’ve had at least a commitment that a venue wants to move forward,” or, if you are okay with that and have an idea of what they might generally pay, you can name a price range. For example, you could say, “For this type of event, I usually get this range of price, depending on details - travel costs, promotion, etc.” This gives you leeway.

MT: Do you think every artist should set standard prices for each type of show they might play?

JR: Yes, I think they should have a general price point for each type of venue. With every new business, when they start out, they’ll work with anybody who will pass the fog test – meaning, put a mirror up to their face and if they breathe into it and it creates fog then they’ll work with them, (laughs), And that’s kind of how it works with the artist, too. Anyone who will even give them a dollar, they’ll play for them, because it’s like ‘Oh my god, I’m getting paid’.  So in terms of price point with every business, you can take one of two approaches – you can either start high and work your way down to figure out your fair market value, or you can start low and work your way up. Most artists are going to start low, and that’s okay, but one of the advantages to starting high is that your value is set high – there’s an association with price and value – so there’s some power because of that, but at the same time there is a possibility that if you’re trying to book a full tour, you cut out 2/3 of the shows because you’re not even in that range.

MT: So how do you know if you’ve set a good price for yourself?

JR: A lot of it is based on peoples' reactions. Based on how they react, you are able to determine what they’re willing to pay.  And in most businesses, pricing is so similar, but for artists every venue is so different.

MT: That’s one of the hardest things about the music industry, especially for independent artists. It’s hard to know what the right approaches are.

JR: There are all these standard approaches that people talk about, rules of negotiation – like, for example, ‘the first person to name a price loses’. Most people go into this looking at it as a win/loss – meaning someone is going to win and someone is going to lose. Unfortunately, the problem with that is that if you look at it that way, the artists are almost always going to lose. Instead, you should approach this entirely as how do we create a win/win situation, a situation where the venues are happy, and we’re happy too. That should be the mindset and the general approach.

Have a general idea what your price is – if you are super flexible and will play for $10 one night, but another venue you want to try to play for $500, that can hurt in the long run. You should standardize pricing to the best you can. Along these same lines, artists should have a non-disclosure agreement with every single venue; a confidentiality agreement that they won’t share the price you gave them with other venues. 

You should also try to subsidize as much as you can; try to get venues or organizations to try to pay for products, travel, promotion, etc. Sometimes, at colleges for example, they can budget out separate things in different areas. For example, if you go to a company or marketing organization and try to do something with them, they may only have a limited budget in some areas, but then in other areas they can make up the cost with travel, because it’s a different kind of expense – things like that.

Artists should have a standard terms and a standard agreement. The venue might send a contract, but you should also have a standard contract to use. Even if they send a contract, still having some standard terms of your own - attaching a rider, for instance – makes you more consistent and more professional, and the more professional you seem, the more money and respect you’ll yield. 

MT: I was talking earlier about how an artist is somewhat replaceable until they hit some level of notoriety or critical mass. 

JR: The critical mass is all based on financial value – and I think that’s something else artists need to remember with negotiation. We all know there are plenty of artists out there who are not that musically talented, but they’re getting paid a ton of money. At the end of the day, you have two choices – you either go into your room and do art, and it’s all about the art and it’s for you, but if you want to get out there and make a living at this, you’ve got to look at as a business, and unfortunately in the business community, they don’t really care as much about the art. The more you can understand that, the more negotiation will make sense, because it’s kind of a counter-intuitive approach.

There are two ways to go about this. If you’re going to just show up and be entertainment, then you’re just a commodity. But if you’re dedicated to building a following, and leveraging the tools and resources that exist out there, then that’s something different. In that case, the negotiation doesn’t even matter.

MT: Any other advice?

JR: Building and leveraging relationships will be really important, too, as a marketing tool. If you’re playing one place, these guys all know everybody else, too, so it’s in your best interest to A) build a relationship with them and be really professional and B) Leverage it in the right way.

MT: And people talk between each other more than we realize – venues and agents all talk with each other, and it’s a smaller community than we might think. 

JR: One of the things a lot of artists don’t have going for them s professionalism. If you’re professional, it can go a long way. People really appreciate that, and they’ll talk about it.

-Martin Storrow for Modern Touring

*Visit Jeff's blog at www.TheGiveGive.com 

Interview with Susie Giang of Fleming Artists

Susie Giang is a respected booking agent and Vice President of Fleming Artists, whose roster includes artists such as Ani DiFranco, Judy Collins, Toad The Wet Sprocket, and a number of both up-and-coming and established singer/songwriters. I got to know her through my involvement with the concert venue Y1 studios in San Diego, and she was kind enough to speak with me about the business of touring, especially as it relates to singer/songwriters.

MT: I wanted to just start by asking – have you felt a serious shift in the music industry as far as touring over the last five years? And if so, what are the major changes you and your artists have experienced?

SG: Five years ago, we were coming off of a great year – Folks in the industry were doing fairly well. Then we’re starting to look at the economic decline and a lot of outside factors, things that genuinely started to affect the average person. And even though you listen to the news and there was a lot of talk during that time (2007-2008) about the recession, I didn’t personally feel impacted by that whole scenario until 2009-2010. Those were the years when I was seeing a lot of artists struggling. A lot of bigger names were playing smaller clubs just to make sure they were making money. It was also a big shift; a lot of artists weren’t selling as many records on the road anymore. A lot of people could afford a $15-30 concert ticket but might not have been able to go for the extra $15-20 on a record. 

Right now for the first time, these last two months have been really brilliant months for the agency, and we’re hoping to see it as a sign of a light at the end of the tunnel and that growth will happen for everyone.

MT: Outside the economic crisis, in terms of what’s going on with the music industry, we’ve heard a lot of doomsday prophecies lately, for example the lead singer of Cake saying music is just going to be a hobby in a few years…What do you make of that?

SG: I think that comment kind of follows the idea that it’s not as hard to be a musician today as it was fifteen years ago – we have Garage Band or Logic on Mac, that come standard with your system. More folks have more opportune moments to build careers. I kind of see amongst my own peers- I hate saying it like this, but I have friends who shouldn’t be artists, or who I feel shouldn’t necessarily be artists. But they’re out there doing what they need to do and if there’s a demand there, then they’re artists. If they have people who want to come out and pay and watch the show, that’s demand. And there’s such a high concentration of artists; it’s been ten years for me and I see 20 or 40 more years to come hopefully; and in that short term I’ve had more artists approaching me than I ever have. So I feel like there’s a bigger concentration of artists because it’s a little bit easier to do it, than in say, 1980, where people are still listening to cassette tapes. 

MT: So are you saying it’s easier to be an artist for the sake of recording, or for the sake of making money and touring?

SG: The former, not the latter. I always need to put things in perspective as a booking agent. There are only so many venues out there in our country, and there’s only a select number of premier venues, you know top tier vs second tier, third tier, and artists are constantly competing for those rooms per date. 

Even a market like Chicago is a prime example, where you’ll see seventh hold, eighth hold, even ninth hold dates. That’s a result of a lot more artists out there, and a lot more agents working those artists. I think my roster has doubled since ten years ago – we had 33 artist when I started, now we have 67. There’s a lot of great art out there, and many artists have accessibility to producing and recording their own.

I see like, I think of Kings of Leon; I loved that band before a lot of their ‘hits’, but I don’t think they saw the true success that they’re seeing now until their fourth record. And then you see bands like Phoenix, coming out with a big bang lot of success on their first record because of the label support, but it wasn’t until their 5^th, 6^th, they’re getting a lot of fan loyalty, and that really creates hard ticket sales, and produces a lot more business. I think that really breeds out of that idea that people can create their own records easily

MT: So would you say it takes just as long for an artist to develop but maybe they don’t get the notoriety right away; it takes time before they get that success?

SG: I think people with money in the industry have to be much more picky and choosy about what they can put their money into – I don’t think there’s a blanket amount anymore that can just be distributed amongst tour support amongst everybody on a label – I think they’re picking and choosing who they can support that way or not, not just on a label front but for everybody - people have to prioritize their artists.

MT: In that same vein, is it still smart for artists to seek out label support, or should they remain independent?

SG: I’m 50/50 on that question; I don’t know that I feel definitely one way or the other. I’ve seen artists do it without label support  – Our flagship artist, Ani (DiFranco) created her own label. But I’ve also seen a lot of artists on the roster with label support, and really find the tour support, the publicity support, and the radio support. That really does impact ticket sales at the end of the day, from my perspective. So it’s hard to say; I think it’s all about what the deal is, versus whether it’s a label or not.

MT: Let’s talk bout booking. It seems like venues often operate in slightly different ways, and a lot have different rules for booking. Is there standard information that you send out no matter what when you’re booking?

SG: I think in a lot of ways, an agent has to book each artist differently. Every artist is different and they require different things. When I’m looking at new clubs, and new rooms, that booking page can be very useful. When I’m not, and I already have a relationship with the presenter, I’m a phone call person, so I just pick up the phone and try to make that happen. 

I’m seeing a lot more festivals asking for Sonicbids applications, and that’s really difficult for me as an agent; it’s not something where I can go through a whole application process, but I understand from the promoter perspective why they need that. Especially when you’re looking at like 300+ slots for

like a city summer fest, but I wonder – I sometimes do want to talk to some of those artistic directors and say “Do you feel like you’re weeding away a lot of artists, or do you feel like you’re not even having an opportunity for some because agents are unwilling to do that?” I think there’s a part of Sonicbids that feels like that’s an artist-direct communication.

MT: So as an agent, you’re up against Sonicbids (and similar sites) who are trying to be a middle man between artists/venues…

SG: I think Sonicbids is still building and trying to clarify their role within the music business, and what they do. I think there’s a lot of different facets that Sonicbids provides, but I don’t know if any pitch or delivery will be as good as a human voice on the phone.

That’s just my human instinct. I want those things, you know, and I think that’s how relationships get developed. It is something that I think is hard. Maybe because the artist down the street is willing to do the Sonicbids and the agent isn’t, then the artist down the street is going to get the gig.

I think the technology wave is really difficult, it’s probably that way in every industry – but it’s really positive in every industry, too, and I still have promoters that say  “Wow, if you’re going to cancel this show on me,” or, “If you’re gonna pass on this deal,” after I’ve had history with the artist for 8 years,“I’d better get a phone call.” I’ve learned that too because I’ve grown up in a generation where email is a personal communication.

MT: So it still comes down to the fact that a lot is relationship based?

SG: Correct.

MT: How can an artist know when to approach an agent?

SG: I’ll get approached by an artist who I think is a ‘prospect’ for me, and it depends. Sometimes, and especially at a time like this, there’s a policy within my own booking mind that I don’t want to sign an artist unless they’re grossing, let’s just say $125,000 a year. And you can start getting into the discussion of, like, ‘is it the chicken or the egg’, like ‘do I need an agent to get 125k a year, or can I do that on my own; and, if I can do that on my own, do I then need an agent?’ There are a lot of those questions that come after. But, you know, I prefer to work with people that have booked for themselves, because then they sort of understand it.

MT: It seems like that whole process of finding an agent is a huge mystery for most artists.

SG: There’s a relative nature to all this, because who knows at $125k, and again I’m throwing an arbitrary number out there, but lets say an artist grosses $126k, is that going to be enough for an agency like CAA (Creative Artists Agency)? But if you look at the roster for, like, a CAA, there are a lot of artists out there who may not make that money; why are they on those rosters?

MT: I don’t know, do you?

SG: I think I know a little bit of that, but I don’t know; I’m not CAA, and I don’t want to specify that one agency out of everybody. But I think it’s about relationships, and I think it’s about the manager who might also manage someone else on the roster, or  maybe a big label deal on the table, and you might not be able to do any work for the next three years, but it’s there. I think people want things to hibernate and incubate in a way - like they’re on the roster, they’re incubating, but there’s not a lot happening just yet, or they’re waiting for the go from the label side of things; there’s a lot of those sort of situations out there. I don’t know if that constitutes a signing for every agent out there, but it definitely plays a factor. I mean, we all have our own politics and relationships.

MT: As far as artists who are booking themselves, what info would you include in a first email to a venue?

SG: I’ve done a lot of consulting around the region, with a lot of artists that book themselves, and I always talk about language, because I think, like anything else in life, when you understand the language, it sort of legitimizes you in a certain aspect. Things like, for instance, holds. The whole hold concept is a booking concept that we all use in the industry, but nobody decided that’s the official system; nobody dictated that. Who knows how long the hold system has been in place- I have no idea. But I think it’s important for an artist to understand that language when they email a promoter. So the promoter understands that they know what they’re doing.

MT: Could you briefly describe what the hold system is?

SG: The hold system is somewhat upheld with a lot of promoters throughout north America (I work with Canada, and I know they use it as well). You might be booking a tour, talking with several promoters in different rooms in one market, & they’ll talk about holds in the calendar. Essentially, you’ll say, ‘hey can I get this specific date range on hold,’ and what that means essentially is that you want one of these dates in that date range, and you want to present a show there.

If a presenter says ‘you’re third hold’ , what that essentially means is that you’re third in line for this range of dates. Or maybe you have a 2^nd hold on the Monday, a 3^rd hold on the Tuesday, and a second hold on the Wednesday – basically, that’s where you stand in the line of artists who want that date. 

In order to break the hold status, you challenge – once you get an offer from a promoter, let’s say you get the offer and you’re like, ‘I could really make that work on that Tuesday and we’re third hold there, I’m going to go ahead and challenge’ – when I do that, whoever has the 2^nd hold on that date has 24 hours to take the date or they get booted off the date. If that happens and I clear the 2^nd hold, now I’m 2^nd hold, I have one more hold in front of me. At that point I go ahead and challenge the first hold. If the first hold takes the date, that means that particular date is gone, and I now have to salvage the Monday or the Wednesday in the routing. But things like challenge – those are the basic 1-2-3’s of booking, and that language is important; I feel like that language, that’s what artists should definitely equip themselves with. But that’s just one example of it.

MT: I know a lot of artists don’t know what it means to advance with a venue…

SG: or what a rider is. I don’t think a lot of artists at that certain level even create a rider. But it’s always important to have some sort of a document that talks about your needs – whether it’s ‘I need salmon on Thursdays’ or ‘ I want to make sure that I have at least a 6 channel PA system to work with’….

I think what’s hard too is that there are a lot of different promoters and a lot of different artists, and you’re trying to find common ground. So I may be the constant variable in that equation, but I’m talking to promoter A and artist A, and artist A wants these things and promoter A want these things, and we need to find common ground. And I’m still going to be the same agent that’s in the equation with promoter A and artist C and I’m still going to need to find a different ground to stand on. It’s always important to know what an artist needs, and what they’ll be walking into on the night of a show. I know certain promoters, and I know their capacities and I memorize them, and I know what they need and what they’ll provide – I know what Y1 comes with, you know, and that’s what’s important in terms of understanding everybody’s desires.

MT: So you’re constantly mediating the needs of different situations?

SG: I feel strongly that we have several kinds of clients. Number one is our artists. That’s what we do, we’re an agency, we have exclusive relationships with the artist. But the second half of that equation - and every artist we work with we hope understands this - is that there’s a promoter end of things, and that promoter needs to be protected, too, or you wont see shows four, five, and six.

MT: So I asked you about a code of professionalism, or professional lingo, at least. Are there any more amateur mistakes that an artist might make that distinguish him/her from the professionals?

SG: It’s about being professional. I literally had an artist call me and leave me a message – I’ll just throw out an anonymous name here, say “Bob” called me and left me a message saying, “I’m so excited to talk to you, all I need is an opportunity. I’m the best thing you’ll ever see. I’m getting off on the phone right now just talking to your voicemail.” That doesn’t work for me. Again, be professional. I don’t think it’s about being a specific color or combination. It’s just presenting yourself well. I think that’s a very crucial thing.

As far as amateur moves artists have when they’re approaching agents as well – one thing is when an artist doesn’t know the numbers; doesn’t know the business of their business. I’ve signed artists literally because they have given me business plans. That, out of the gate, is somebody who is completely aware of what their growth is, what they’re pulling in, how many dates they’re playing, how they do in merch – those things show me that an artist knows what they’re doing, or their manager or their team a lot of the time understands what’s going on.

MT: We hear a lot about what artists should be doing. Are there things the most successful venues do that differentiate them as well?

SG: This is a bit of a trickier question. We do get attention from new buyers, new clubs, new promoters that are interested in the roster, or maybe just wanted to look at one name but followed the internet trail to the Fleming roster and saw all the names and then there’s a conversation. Some of the things I need in order to know the legitimacy of a promoter: who else have you promoted, do you have  a sound system, how big is your stage? Do you have a tech person there every night? Will you be providing meals and drinks to the band and what’s the hospitality situation? Do you have a green room and is there a bathroom in the green room? Those things are about standard of living for our artists, and that’s why those things are really important. And then, can I have a website – I’ve asked for pictures for new venues as well, and I do go the extra mile to make sure those things are there. I have signature files - all the details I need of a promoter.

MT: Is there clear feedback from artists about the experience?

SG: We ask for standard show reports from all our promoters, which has become a really accurate system now that email exists, and we’re also talking to the artists and the managers every day. And a lot of the artists are now sending us show/tour reports every day, which will have the money report, but also a comment, and those things are crucial for us. I booked 126 dates last month, so if I don’t know, if I don’t have those reports, I’m not going to be able to know that maybe Ari Hest was not happy here, or maybe Willie Porter really loved this venue. So that’s kind of how we keep track of them. We have a database too. Every time we book a room I always look up the last date there, or if we’ve ever done a show there.

MT: 126 dates last month, wow.

SG: Yeah, the volume is great - the quality has to be greater, and I feel like that’s really been happening lately. You know, as a side note from the agency, we just signed Carbon leaf, Marcy Playground, Collin Hay - some really good signings that have opened up things for us. And you know, I want to sign Collin Hay, but I also want to sign Gregory Allan Isakov, because that’s my passion - my passion is developing artists as well, and that’s got to be part of my life here, too. I can completely understand the intimidation factor for artists approaching agents as well, for sure.

MT: The intimidation, and also the mystery – a lot of artists don’t know the way things work – if they did they might approach things in a more professional way.

SG: Well, I think artists don’t know, and the agents don’t always know either, you know? (laughs) You have to have onus on that – Sometimes there might be just that "X" factor that night of the week when you went and saw that show, where you just couldn’t walk away…Those types of signings exist for people too, you know? That’s  a mystery even amongst the agents, like what really pushes something over the top and makes it a project you want to work on.

MT: How common are buy-ons? You know, artists buying on to a bigger tour?

SG: I’ve been approached with buy-ons more this year than I ever have, which is interesting, I guess. I’ve had several inquiries over the last couple months about buy-ons, more than I had in the last nine years of doing it. I think they’re starting to become fairly common. Artists from Canada especially, with the backing of their government, have a little bit more funding from the arts council or what-not. That can help them get on tours. But you know it is hard where you have – our government doesn’t necessarily do that- they help in other ways maybe.

A lot of the buy-ons come from label work; folks calling from labels and saying, “Hey, I really want to get this artist on xxx’s tour. I think that’s a case-by-case scenario, if people do that or not. I haven’t done it just yet.

MT: A lot of artists are trying to get on bigger tours, or at least one off dates with bigger artists – so that’s a whole new part of the mix? That competition?

SG: For sure, and also the competition to work with promoters of that level, I think a lot of artists are really good at starting – genuinely starting a relationship with a stronger promoter in the market that has these shows that come through that may not have support and are willing to put them on it – or constantly keep their name on the back of their minds so they always have an option there, and I think that’s great, too. It’s just that developing those relationships for those opportunities can be hard. And takes time, lots of time.

MT: This is all helpful stuff, and I really appreciate it.

SG: One of the things I fear is that a lot of artists are just losing a lot more money because there’s just no education about it. You’re wasting a lot of money to learn these lessons, instead of just getting the information and moving on it.

MT: As an artist, there are so many things I wish I knew five years ago…

SG: And you have the perspective of the promoter, too. I think that’s always empowering, to have the multiple-hat perspective.

I think we’re all trying to figure out the puzzle, and we just keep on committing and keep on going down the road. Keep our heads up and keep moving forward.

***

The Magic List

By the fall of 2007, I was hitting my stride. I was performing dozens of college concerts per year, traveling across the country, and finally fulfilling a lifelong goal of playing my own music for a living. At the same time, I had been away so often that I had very few ties to my hometown music community in San Diego. Every time I came home I was reminded of how disjointed and competitive our local music scene was, which was especially disappointing given the number of talented artists who lived there. I decided, along with Jeff, my manager at the time, that we should do something to change that, and one fall evening, we invited more than 50 of the best singer/songwriters in San Diego to my house for dinner and a meeting. It was an interesting mix; old friends and rivals, lively personas, interesting hats. Beneath all of the big personalities, however, were very simple emotions. We talked openly and found that people had all been afraid of how competitive and cold the music scene was; they had become too guarded to collaborate and share, and they didn't feel supported by their peers. Behind all the posturing was a lot of fear, doubt, and anxiety.

What followed over the coming months was an incredible experiment. We would get together once a month. Jeff and I would teach the artists what we knew about how to make a living on the road, and we would all share with each other the new music we were working on. In return for sharing my knowledge, I got to know everyone in the community, and a lot of us became closer and formed friendships and alliances that we still have today. (As a side note, several of those artists went on to achieve touring success in the coming months and years)

At every one of our meetings, there would always be one artist (usually a different person every time) who would hear about all my connections within the college music world and come up to me after our meeting, humbly asking if he or she could have a copy of the 'list'. I'm assuming these artists wanted a list of my contacts at various universities (which wouldn't necessarily have helped them, as many of my contacts were personal friends). I always tried to be patient and explain that it wasn't about having a list as much as about building relationships and getting out there. It really isn't as much about who you know than how you know them. Behind closed doors, Jeff and I would always have a good laugh because it seemed like a lot of people thought we had some kind of a magic list out there that could make an artist successful. I think a lot of artists truly believe, If I only had the right list, the right contact, everything would change. That's like saying If I only had the right list of potential clients, I could be a successful lawyer. Your success doesn't come from the opportunities; the opportunities come from your success.  


As I sit down to compile the things I've learned through my experience, I keep thinking back on those meetings, and how, if I had to really condense everything, perhaps I could make a magic list - but not the kind those artists had imagined. It wouldn't be a list of contacts; the contacts come and go. Mine would be a list of a few simple guidelines. The short version would be as follows:

1. Develop your brand.
2. Know your audience.
3. Know who you are, and know who you are not.
4. Be consistent.
5. Be professional.
6. Be good at what you do.
7. Persist.

Of course, the devil is in the details, and 'magic' is a slightly misleading term. I should clarify:

Magic = (intelligence + hard work + talent + consistency) x time

More on this to follow.